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Live A Fulfilling, Fearless Life As A Creative with Jeff Leisawitz, Author of Not F*cking Around

Julie Lokun: Corinna. Are you living your most fulfilling life? Hm. Sometimes truth or dare trust at the time.

Corinna Bellizzi: 85% of the time?

Julie Lokun: That was very convincing. We’re going to have an interesting conversation with Jeff. Who really understands about living your fulfilling life as a creative.

Corinna Bellizzi: And all the challenges that creatives face since he’s won himself and award-winning producer who has been a musician his entire life.

Julie Lokun: Heck yeah. Did you know? Well, everyone’s going to get to know who we called on the telephone to jam. No kidding. A famous rockstar, which is super cool at the end of this episode.

Corinna Bellizzi: Yes. And I think it’s really just important for people to note as a settle down to listen in that Jeff really is about living life fearlessly and going after what he wants and he’s not f-ing around. So he isn’t.

Julie Lokun: And he didn’t swear as much as I thought he would.

Corinna Bellizzi: Well, the book title that we’re going to go into is literally called Not F*cking Around, and I want to get this right.

So I’m pulling it up… Not Fucking Around: The No-Bullshit Guide For Getting Your Creative Dreams Off The Ground. And you can get free chapters now just by going to his website, JeffLeisawitz.com and giving your first name and your email address. So you can get a taste of what we’re talking about today.

Julie Lokun: And all the links will be in our show notes.

So if you don’t know how to spell Leisawitz, it’s okay. Neither do we, but what we know is he’s a really nice guy and the conversation about failing fast, about shining than crashing and rising again is a story of all our lives, especially as creative.

Corinna Bellizzi: Yes. And especially as podcasters or authors or public speakers, understanding that you’re not always your 100%, top best you can learn from your mistakes.

You can fail quicker, make those adjustments, build out your list of what’s working and what’s not working. I love what we have to share with the team today. Just with everybody today.

Julie Lokun: Karina, have you ever failed before?

Corinna Bellizzi: Oh, many times. Yes, really? Fallen flat on my face, riding a motorcycle for one. So I mean, everybody, this is something even from the world of motorcycling, every one crashes, it happens to everybody.

And so as you’re learning to do something as dangerous as ride a motorcycle, you get really familiar with things like a helmet and your appropriate gear. And you’re wearing armor to ensure that when you do fall, because you. That you’ll live to tell the story and write another day. And I think that that same ethos comes into all things that we do creatively too, because you aren’t always going to succeed.

You are going to fall on your face a little bit here and there, figuratively and.

Julie Lokun: And that is spoken from the boss. who, as we see. And when I look at her, you think that she is perfectly polished. She is so well articulated, but to know that we are all struggling through things, especially when we are trying to strive for our dreams and our dreams can look so different.

It’s so important, important to know that you’re not alone. And failure is a lesson that we learned, and I think Jeff will really, really articulate and emphasize the fact that. This is where we become better humans.

Corinna Bellizzi: And this is where we can become our own best dragon fly right. Evolve into our high selves.

Julie Lokun: I love that. And funny enough, a little back story for y’all, you know, take a look at those spams. You get in your email, take a look at those cold cold emails that you receive because. There is power in really reaching out to people and understanding who you’re reaching out to because you never know those relationships you’ll build.

Jeff. Jeff literally sent me an email. I would call it a cold email, just pitching one liner, a one-liner to be on a podcast. And I was, I think I was having a bad day. I was annoyed. I’m like, why am I getting so many spams? And I responded to him. He said, oh, I love. I love your podcast. I’m like, which packets are you talking about, dude?

And then he went on and he responded immediately and was saying, uh, talking about another podcast that I host obsessed. I’m like, wait, okay. He knows what he’s talking about. And then he sent me his book not effing around and he immediately grabbed my attention. And queerness, like, who are we talking to today?

That was Jeff. He wrote me an email. That’d be on our podcast. Well, let’s think about this.

Corinna Bellizzi: So you are actually communicating to everybody here that we’ve had some success as podcasters, because remember the days when you were first starting out with obsessed, when it was like, oh, I’ve got to get somebody to be on the show.

Now you have people reaching out to us and you’re like, which podcast are we talking about here? So, I mean, through the power of consistency, through keeping at this thing, through making yourself known in this world and putting out this content you’re becoming sought after, and heck Jeff wanted to be on obsessed.

I’m sure you’ll bring it back.

Julie Lokun: Now he’s on the meeting. He has. Yeah. I was thinking perhaps he’d be a better guest, but it speaks to when you’re pitching somebody to be on their podcast, to know who you’re speaking to and to really create a unique dialogue as Jeff did with us. Yes,

Corinna Bellizzi: he did. It was great.

Julie Lokun: And this is the dialogue that you’re going to listen to.

It’s great. It’s really inspiring. And he’s a smart guy and I’m glad that he did send me that email.

Corinna Bellizzi: Yeah, well, sometimes the power of sending a note and just responding here and there that can bring you surprises and good ones.

Julie Lokun: Right. And don’t be a stalker, just be informed. Let’s kick it with. Kick it, kick it.

Corinna Bellizzi: We’re joined today by somebody who is Not Effing Around and that’s Jeff Leisawitz. Jeff actually connected with Julie via an email early on, and we just had to bring him on

Julie Lokun: He stood out and I have to say that I have never, ever responded with such vigor and I don’t want to call it a spam email, but we do get a lot of emails pitching.

And I guess this is a good lesson for people that are pitching podcasts. He said, I really love your podcast. I’d love to, I, I can actually pull it off up, but it was very polite, but he said, I really love your podcast. And he put, you put like misspellings in the subject. I’m like, oh, that’s on purpose. I think. But I responded and I think I was in a salty mood that day.

Corinna Bellizzi: It must’ve been my fault. I’m the one who puts her in a salty mood.

Julie Lokun: No, she makes me, she makes me a better human, but I responded, oh yeah.

Which podcast are you talking about? Because I’ve, you know, a couple of podcasts, but he responded, he actually knew the podcast obsessed. So thus, we have Jeff here and he’s not effing around. He’s not effing around like swears you might not like. That’s right. Or you might love chat just because of that.

Jeff Leisawitz: It’s hard to say whether you like swears or not. Hopefully he gets something out of this.

Julie Lokun: So just from the pitch perspective, how are you doing it? And why did I tell me why you got my attention?

Jeff Leisawitz: I got your attention. Well, I suppose I hit you on the right day, you know, and in one sense, I, I believe I followed it up, uh, at least once or twice.

So, you know, you got that action moving forward. Why else? It was personalized, you know? Um, I don’t know something you wanted to talk about.

Julie Lokun: Well, because you answered my question. You didn’t pull up, put up with my salty attitude, meaning oh yeah. Well, which podcast and you came back and that personalized approach to pitching people to be on their shows, I think speaks to speaks to the hosts.

Corinna Bellizzi: We were also talking about a one-liner right. He didn’t send you a diatribe email that was too long to get through either.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, definitely. Keep it short.

Julie Lokun: Keep it short, keep it simple. Stupid, right? Yes. But you definitely didn’t get our attention as we are the media casters. And what I’d love that you do is that you are speaking to creatives.

You’re telling people who really you’re speaking to me, actually just yours. You’re speaking to creatives that know they’re meant for more. Not really sure how to go about it because they’re listening to the naysayers. They are in a space of self doubt. Tell us a little bit about that, Jeffrey.

Jeff Leisawitz: Um, well there are plenty of naysayers in the world. Um, whether that is coming from, you know, your family or your family history, you know, peers, marketing messages. All those kinds of things generally tell us, you know, either subtly or covertly that we’re not good enough, we’re not smart enough or not capable enough to do the kinds of things that we want to do.

So a lot of people, I think, tend to settle for lives that are less than they could be both in career. And in many other ways, As a coach, I kind of work on two different levels. One is what I call the outer world. And that is, you know, what are the strategies? What are your habits? You know, what are just smart moves to do in the world is going to help step you forward in whatever your goal is.

And then the second part is what I call the inner world. And that’s the psychology and really this, the subconscious psychology that tends to drive. Right. So we all have, um, beliefs about the world and identities about ourselves that are built in from childhood. And if these are positive, that’s great. If you believe, Hey, I’m smart and good looking and capable and all that kind of stuff, fantastic.

Everything in your life kind of runs through that system. And then you’re going to act and make choices based on them. If you have some subconscious beliefs or identities that say, oh, you know, I’m not really that smart. And when it gets hard, I kind of tend to quit. And you know, maybe it’s not really worth it anyway, then no matter what happens, even if it’s something positive and good, it’s still going to run through that system and you will again, make choices and often even sabotage, uh, Positive things in your life.

So I really kind of work on both levels to help people understand what, what they really want to do, why they want to do it. Cause that’s another huge piece. Why do we want to do the things that we want to do? If we’re not really fully tapped into that? We’re never, we’re never fully energized. Right. And what would we want to, we want to be fully energized and fully aligned so we can kick out.

Corinna Bellizzi: Well, and you’re also not, well, you have. A bit of experience working in the field of music. I understand you’re an award-winning producer as well. So I’d love for you to talk about your experience in that sort of media.

Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. Well, um, I have been writing songs and playing music since they’d been about 14 years old.

Um, just a super brief bio. I’ve had thousands of placements on filming TV. I teach songwriting at a college. I was a music journalist for the big radio station, um, that broke grunge music to the world. I’ve made records. I’ve had a million streams. I’m like pretty, and to me it’s like, I’ve been around.

Super quiet awhile.

Corinna Bellizzi: Well, I love that too, because I’m, I’m extremely into music as a consumer of it. Just not so much as a musician. My father is a musician. He can pick up any instrument and play it within minutes and I just didn’t have. And eight skillsets. Yeah.

Jeff Leisawitz: So, so, um, so that’s the background. What exactly, what do you think your listeners would like to know about the music business or, or,

Julie Lokun: well, I know, you know, I’ve coached a lot of creatives.

I’ve coached musicians. I have coached authors writer, those people. When you are a true creative creator and when you’re a true artist, it is something within you that if it does not get out, you die a slow death. And then when they’re met with this creation that they put out in the world, They a lot of times I see creatives don’t have that business savvy to figure out which way to go or what way to turn.

And I love your quote in your book that we shine, we crash, and then we rise again. And that is the carousel. If you will, that I feel a lot of creatives are on.

Jeff Leisawitz: Absolutely. Well, you know, being a creative is a bold path. Let’s just say that. I mean, every path in life is a bold path. Cause life is freaking tough in a lot of ways, but if you’re a creative your own, you know, unless you happen to get hired, you know, And Natty agency or something like that.

You’re kind of forging your own path day after day after day. And not only are you forging your path, but the world around you changes. I mean, 20 years ago, what was going on in the music business is, is, is nothing like what it’s what’s happening now. So you really have to know what’s going on, know where your value is, understand different ways to connect with audiences.

All this kind of stuff, the same thing, it really, any other entrepreneurs solo, preneur would do, right? It’s just, you’re selling something which in many cases is sort of taken for granted, I think by the world, you know, in my, in mind, Concept creativity is not a luxury item. It is the heartbeat of what makes us human, right?

Yes. We got to get fed. We got to get shelter, you know, that kinda stuff. Right. But without creativity, without music and books, stories and all this kind of stuff, what would there be? Right. But even with that, creativity is often very devalued by the general public. Right. So we have to figure out ways to make it more valuable for people so that they want to buy it.

If you’re doing this as a profession, right. I’m not saying every creative could or should be doing that. If you’ve got a day job and you like it, or you’re doing your entrepreneur thing, Fantastic. Play guitar and sing songs at night.

Corinna Bellizzi: Well, I’ve worked with a lot of people in the world of graphic design and brand building, and I think they all, essentially, at some point, get to this revelation where they say I’ve basically been making other people successful throughout my career.

And I’ve left myself with very little, all of my creative energy has gone towards this brand or this effort or this advertising effort. And, and so they’re, they’re left fulfilled by the fact that they’ve seen some successes occur, but they haven’t really been able to take ownership for them and call them their own.

And so there’s like this quiet little depression that creeps in and makes them feel a little bit less. They’ve been as successful as they want it to be as an artist. And so I think that can be a really difficult balance and, you know, really getting to the point where they can sustain themselves from an economic standpoint and also feed that juice where they’re feeling like their creativity is birthed into the world and they’re valued for it can be a real struggle.

So I wonder what you would say to that individual. That’s working to. Really shine as an artist, have their voice heard, because this is something we talk about a lot on the media cast, like the media casters, just having your voice heard, getting it in front of the right people so that you can realize your dreams.

Jeff Leisawitz: Absolutely. So what you described there is, is a very typical path. And I think the way it starts is, you know, you’re young. Ooh, I love visual arts. Okay. You kind of take a look at it or your parents, you know, kinda give you some crap. It’s like, yeah, you want to be a professional painter, forget it. Right.

It’s never going to happen. That’s the message. That’s amazing. Um, okay. But you know, you could do graphic design or web design or something like that. Okay, great. There’s definitely tons of jobs. So you go into that because you love the thing and then you do the thing and you do the thing and you do it for somebody else and maybe they’re successful with it, but all the ones.

The core of your own expression is getting lost. You’re expressing, but you’re expressing on behalf of the client or the employer. Right. So yes, it gets to that point. So what do you do? Well, I would highly suggest anyone who’s kind of in that space to take some time and to really honor. Their own creativity.

And I know this is difficult because you’re spending all day being creative for somebody else. However, it, it, it pays both in your job and in your life to take the time, to really find some time to create something that matters to you and to re for it to really matter and to finish it and to put it out into the world.

Right. And this doesn’t have to be a huge thing. This can be, I’m going to do one comic strip a week and put it on Instagram. Fantastic. You would be shocked or people up there would be shocked at how a simple, um, output like that and sharing it with the world can be so effective. Um, uh, as a gift to yourself.

Julie Lokun: It is a gift. Creativity is a gift. And I love that because my background, Jeff, I know you’ve done the research, you know what podcasts you’re on, but I have always had a desire to write and it just came out of me naturally, since I was. It’s as soon as I could hold a pen or a pencil. And then I went to undergrad for journalism, and then I’m like, wait, you only make like five bucks an hour being a journalist.

This isn’t work. I like clothes too much, but you know, and that stifled my creativity. And then as we navigate our lives and I’m like, well, what’s, what do I do next? You know, I can do marketing. Why don’t I go to law school? Okay. Why don’t I become a coach? But as I am maturing, if you will, because I’m a woman of a certain age.

Everything I’m doing, goes back to my writing. And that’s where I find that pure pleasure and joy. And I think it’s to understand that number one, number two, think outside the box on how you are going to. Provide for yourself or your family make a living. It doesn’t always look the way that we think it’s going to look when we’re five years old, you know, I’m going to write a book.

I’m going to be Laura Ingalls Wilder. You know, that’s why I wanted to be who she is. Lauren. She has very good. Good, good, good.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. So I mean, that is, that is absolutely true. And I think most people who’ve lived long enough realize that. Our lives rarely look much. Like we fought would. When we were 10 years old, right.

It just kind of doesn’t happen that much. Um, so you’re right. And you know, it kind of brings me to a concept that I love and I use with my clients all the time. It’s a Japanese concept called eeky guy. Oh, I know

Julie Lokun: this. The reason why we wake every morning, eeky guy. Exactly. And it is a beautiful concept I feel.

And go ahead, Jeff. But I feel like that’s what we’re everybody wants to be.

Jeff Leisawitz: All right. So the way I understand it is it’s the intersection of various factors in our lives. One is what do you love? Right. So what do you love is one part, what are you good at? So of course there are things that you love that you might not be good at.

So you got to get good at them. And then what does the world, uh, need. Right. The world needs a whole bunch of stuff. And then what will the world pay for? If you can put these four things together, that is your sweet spot, and that is a wonderful, you know, place to kind of shoot for your creative or any kind of endeavors.

Really. If, once again, you’re looking to. I get paid for it. And again, getting paid for it is great, but it is not the only thing in the world.

Julie Lokun: Not the only thing. That’s a driver, it’s a driver for a lot of people. And that’s where I see this divergence of people who are stuck in the corporate stronghold that are bound by those golden handcuffs. And they’re so miserable. I feel like this is where I find a lot of my clients come from where they are just miserable, but they need to pay a check and it is a scary place.

You can do it and eat, you know, the Japanese culture fascinates me. And as you mentioned, eeky guy, I’m so excited that you brought that up because the Japanese culture is CS. Definition or boundaries between your personal life and your professional life. Everything is one and the same. And to find something that you love to do that you want to do all the time, like play the guitar or write a book or a dance or act.

It shouldn’t be any difference. There should be no differentiation between that and your personal life. It should all be one in the same.

Jeff Leisawitz: Absolutely. I mean, they’re different people have different views. There’s a lot of ways to do life. I knew a guy years ago and he was a great drummer. He had this day job that he loved that paid really well.

And he w and I was, and I was still, you know, like working on being a rock star at the time. And I, I was trying to understand, and I was talking to him like, why would you do this? Don’t you want to share your music? Don’t you want to was like, no, I want to go to my job, do it well, do it right. Get paid, come home, spend as much money as I want on drums.

And I don’t really care if anybody else hears it. Okay. You know, we all make our choices. We don’t have different. No,

Corinna Bellizzi: that’s true. And if he was fulfilled by his work and he gained pleasure through playing the drums and didn’t turn playing the drums into work, I mean, that could have taken some of the joy out of it for him, which I think is often what people confront.

They have an idea about what it will be to be a musician or what their life will look like when they are. And they don’t realize, let’s say the work that goes into it and. For lack of a better term, the bullshit you have to swallow to make things happen.

Julie Lokun: You just drop the bomb. Girl.

Corinna Bellizzi: I want to talk about your book because I think this is part of what intrigued both Julie and myself, because I’m not effing around, but you called the title of your book, not effing around, right.

That’s right. So talk to us about this. Why did you write it? And why did you choose to lean in to something that is, let’s say a little bit racy as your title.

Julie Lokun: You’re got our attention though. I’m saying you didn’t get, I mean, it does work.

Jeff Leisawitz: not effing around the no bullshit guy for getting your creative dreams off the ground.

Um, so first of all, with the title, yes, there are, there are, you know, cuss words in this thing. So when you polarizing anyway, Any kind of, you know, with language, of course we see this in politics and everything else, people, people gravitate or they do. Right. Some people are like, oh my God, that book title is awesome.

Like you guys, and some people are like, I can’t put, like, do you really have to use those words? You’re not really

Julie Lokun: wait. Was it your, was I like your mother asking you Jeffrey? Did you have to use those words?

Jeff Leisawitz: Nah, she never gave me shit on that.

So, what is the book about? I mean, the book is essentially the reason why I wrote the book is because I have been a creative, like my whole life and I’ve had, you know, some pretty solid successes and tons and tons of fails all the way through the line. And I’ve banged my head against the wall. Night and day for decades.

So this book is my attempt to help others bang their head against the wall a little bit less, because you’ll still do it, believe me, right? It’s just, how can we find the shortcuts and hacks and the moves to get through this thing and reach our goals and be fulfilled because as you sort of mentioned, there’s plenty of people who get to their goals and they’re not fulfilling.

Oh my God, what a disaster, you get a million dollars to get a paycheck. You get on his fame and fortune or something like that is like a serious fail. Right. But again, you know, in my book we talk, I talk about this fit, fail fast. And reframe what failing means. Failing is such a scary word. Nobody likes to do it, but the truth is failure is your only way to success.

And if we don’t consider it failure, we consider it feedback. It lightens it up and you start to understand that every time you don’t get to your goal, instead of freaking out about it and, or quitting, you take a breath, you ask as many questions as you can about what worked and what did not work. You’ll understand it better.

You iterate, you do the thing again, and guess what? You’re probably still not going to get fully to your goal, but that’s okay because you get more feedback, you do the same process and you just keep it.

Corinna Bellizzi: I love that. I really do. I, um, I have the pleasure of interviewing Moga Odette who used to be, he was a chief business officer at Google.

Okay. So climb the ladder really quickly. He’s I guess in his early forties, at this point, he’s now written a book about happiness, and he’s also written another about the power of AI. And he shared really candidly on my podcast care more, be better, which is my other. That. He had achieved all these things, had the house, had the beautiful wife, had the children, had all the money he could really ever imagine needing or wanting and more and woke up one day and was completely miserable and realized that something had to change.

And so his podcast is called slow. Because the whole concept is really slowing down. But I think also just really getting honest and Frank with yourself about what truly makes you happy and not letting it be the keeping up with the Joneses or the Tesla that your neighbor has. And you know, what constructs that you may have inherited from your family or from your friends circle about the things that you’re supposed to want.

Because if you are constantly driving after the things that you’re supposed to want without ever checking in with yourself or the things that you do want. Then you’re going to end up in that situation where you’ve driven yourself. To probably near burnout, if not complete burnout to health collapse, potentially, and to a space where you’re just not happy with how you got there, you’re not happy with where you are and you may not even be able to clearly see how to get yourself into a situation where you can get to that happiness and live your most fulfilling life.

Jeff Leisawitz: I would totally agree. And I think that, um, that theme is part of. With the great American myth around this stuff that got to have more and better and bigger and richer and more beautiful and all these kinds of things that just keep us going, you know, keep us running around in circles. It’s the hamster wheel, it’s a hamster wheel.

So, you know, I believe that confidence is knowing your own truth. Right when you know your own truth, there’s confidence there. And the joy comes from knowing that truth, even when the culture or the family or the peers, um, are, you know, on aligned with that. Right? So a culture tells you, you gotta work your ass off to be a million.

Right, but, you know, Hey, you know what, I’m cool with this little apartment and reading books half the day. Right? If you can step, if you can step into that with truth, you will be happier. Yeah. 100%. If that’s your jam. Yeah.

Julie Lokun: Amazing insights that you are bringing to the table. And it’s really making me think, and I have college age children. And for some reason I gave birth to little boys that like to play music. One’s a guitarist. One is a drummer and I tell them, follow your joy. Be able to support yourself, but follow your joy.

And again, my oldest. Going into pre-law and I’m not sure that’s your joy, but it’s a whole cycle of learning. And I love that. I, I guess I’m fascinated as we wrap this up, who is somewhat. Who is the most famous person that you’ve jammed with.

Jeff Leisawitz: Gotcha. That I’ve actually played music with. Uh, I think I got a pretty good story on that, actually.

So

Julie Lokun: guys, hold on with your

Jeff Leisawitz: seatbelts way back in the day, I was a huge fan of the band ed briquette on the new Bohemia. Oh,

Corinna Bellizzi: I’m not aware of too many things.

Julie Lokun: I’m not aware of too much. Isn’t that? Um, what’s his name? His wife’s.

Jeff Leisawitz: Paul Simon. Paul Simon

Julie Lokun: married? Yes. Oh, look at you sing it Corrina. No, no, we don’t judge here.

We don’t

Corinna Bellizzi: judge.

Jeff Leisawitz: Okay. So, uh, I had moved to Seattle. Maybe five or six years after they were really popular. And I was outside at a concert one time and it was ed singing with a different band. She had a different band. It w you know, it wasn’t the new Bohemians. And I was just talking to some guy there and he said, oh yeah, you know, the guitar player from the new Bohemians lives in Seattle, I was like, oh, that’s cool.

I had no idea. So a couple of months later, I’m at home and I’m listening to their. And I’m like, huh? I should just look in the phone book. That’s how I’m going to go. This was if the guys is listed in the phone book. Yeah. So he was, I called him up. I’m like, Hey, is this Kenny from the new Bohemians? He’s like, yeah.

I’m like, I’m Jeff. I play bass. He’s like, yeah. Holy cow. So it also turns out that, um, another guy from the van, John, uh, the percussionist was also lived in town. So we got together and it was, you know, drums and, uh, you know, guitar and I played bass and it sounded like you have in the new Bohemians, it was like the coolest thing.

Julie Lokun: Oh, I love that. That’s amazing. And that just speaks to the power of just asking as well.

Jeff Leisawitz: And now, I mean, these days it’s even easier because you know, there’s so solely social media things and LinkedIn and all this, you can, you can reach out to anybody. It doesn’t mean they’re going to respond, but it’s easy to find.

Corinna Bellizzi: Yeah, that’s for certain, well, thank you so much for joining us today, Jeff, this has been a pure joy. We do have something we ask all of our guests to do before we sign off. Can

you say two words for us with enthusiasm? Kick it

Jeff Leisawitz: kick at. Fuck. Yeah,

Julie Lokun: that was really good guys. If there are children in the room, please remove them.

Jeff Leisawitz: Immediately remove them 10 seconds. Yeah,

Julie Lokun: thanks, Jeff. It was a pleasure. I’m so glad that I read your email and responded to it in a salty way, because this is how connections are made and this is how lives are changed.

Every experience, every person we meet changes the trajectory of our lives. So thank you, Jeff.

Jeff Leisawitz: Absolutely. Thank you for having me on the show. Thanks for listening to another episode of the media cast. You can keep this conversation going and kick it with Carina and jewels and live office hours each week.

This is the media casters.mn.co to sign up and don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe. Whenever you listen, let’s kick it.